- Post your claim and sub-claims here via a comment by Thursday, Sept. 15
- Identify the two strongest claims and sub-claims of your peers by commenting on their comment by Tuesday, Sept. 20. Be sure to explain WHY you think they have offered the strongest claim.
- Have fun. Be kind. Drink lots of water. Help an old lady across the street. 🙂
Extra Karma Headed Your Way
Ms. Kitchens' Corner 
MAIN CLAIM;
The extent to which Paine describes America does not hold entirely true to today due to the fact that the goverment is not completely built on the rights of all men.
SUB-CLAIM;
People wishing to be a part of this country are not always allowed. Even though this country was built on the idea of America being a safe haven for all those in the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness.
SUB-CLAIM;
All men should be allowed to marry, and gay men and women are denied this right.
MAIN CLAIM:
The details of the America that Paine speaks of are not all true, based on the fact that, no matter how much one wishes for this, the negative aspect of human nature will always corrupt a utopia.
SUB-CLAIM:
The merging of peoples from different nationalities is not so “cordial” as he speaks of, seeing as how a wide percentage of the country are somewhat racist, from stereotypical to downright Xenophobic.
SUB-CLAIM:
The rich are privileged in that they are provided with a health care system that ensures their well-being, and they won’t have to worry about going to the doctor for fear of outrageous costs, or not allowing a vital procedure they need to survive simply because their health care won’t cover it.
Your claim is one of the strongest because it takes a stance that can be easily argued. The use of the words “negative” and “corrupt” directly contrast Paine’s positive view of the United States. The word choice in your first sub-claim is amazing. The words “racist”, “stereotypical”, and “Xenophobic” all show that you clearly think Paine’s view does not hold true in today’s society. I agree that the merging of people is not so “cordial” today.
I agree with Annie’s also, due to the fact that it not only answers the prompt, but states a clear reason why. It can easily be debated from both sides, as well as having sub claims that easily link back to her thesis.
This claim is one of the strongest because: first, you are saying he wasn’t correct at all, thats a very strong place to stand because it can be argued from many different stand points, and it would be more difficult to make concessions, compared to someone who says he was right at the time and not anymore. It’s also very strong because you use contiversial words, such as “corrupt”. You also answer the question and clearly as well as clearly state your opinion.
The last thing that I think makes this very strong is you use Paine’s word, “cordial”. You quoted him in your defense agianst him.
Hey There, Parvusdeca,
I don’t think we’ve met! Any chance you can use something that resembles your real name so I can give you credit for participating? Gracias!
This claim is one of the strongest because: first, you are saying he wasn’t correct at all, thats a very strong place to stand because it can be argued from many different stand points, and it would be more difficult to make concessions, compared to someone who says he was right at the time and not anymore. It’s also very strong because you use contiversial words, such as “corrupt”. You also answer the question and clearly as well as clearly state your opinion.
The last thing that I think makes this very strong is you use Paine’s word, “cordial”. You quoted him in your defense agianst him.
Annie’s claim is definitely one of the strongest claims because it takes a very definite stance which can be argued with little to no problem at all. The use of “Corrupt” and “Negative” within the main claim show a complete contrast to Paine’s view of the New United States. Also,using words such as “Stereotypical” and “Xenophobic” in the first sub-claim shows that Paine’s United States is not the same today as he once described it, which defines the main claim even more.
I like your claim because it states its point and still has room for argument.
Who might this be? Any chance you can change your name to something that rings of your real name…so I can give you credit for participating? Gracias!
I believe this is one of the strongest arguments. Both the claim and the sub-claims are believable, well structured, and contain creative vocabulary words. The two sub-claims effectively support the main claim.
I also believe Annie’s claim addresses the fact that Paine is leaving out a thing called evidence. Also the 1st subclaim is very strong and pointed to a quite provable fact. Overall this claim is like adding 4 cups of coffee to 1 cup of water, the product is going to be very strong.
I think Annies is one of the strongest arguments, because her claims are both well spoken and believable. Not only do you say what you think, you explain why. Also excellent use of vocabulary
Claim: The differences that have developed in the values and rights of the new nation that Paine describes and one it has become over the last two hundred years prevent Paine’s words from ringing true in the modern era.
Sub-Claim: Modern America policies are trying to make people forget the prejudices of the past that Paine’s America viewed as correct. People angered by this history of unequal rights now are trying to correct a past that has already been written and thus cannot be changed.
Sub-Claim: The best treatment, whether medical or entertainment, is often expensive to a point that is it reserved for the wealthy who can afford it, while the less well off must settle for second hand treatment in a country designed to treat her civilians as equals.
Oops. That should say Modern American policies, not Modern America policies.
Claim: In the beginning America had a goal, to be free and independent, however Americans have lost sight of that value and is drifting away from it.
Sub-Claim: Americans have so many right we no longer have any.
Sub-Claim: Our freedom is slowly dissolving.
I agree because our forefathers wanted to become free and we are now getting stuck in the same situation they wanted to get away from in the first place.
Nathan, keep in mind: we’re not agreeing or disagreeing with the claims; rather, we are identifying the strongest claims. As in, which bear the most weight, argument-wise?
Claim: The values, rights, and equalities that Paine describes do not hold true in modern day America simply because a nation cannot stay uncorrupted for long.
Sub-claim: The diverse mix of present day cultures create animosity when brought together, in contrast to the past civility.
Sub-claim: The highly privileged, rich Americans have oppressed the poor, and completely erased equality among the social classes.
I agree with your claim and su-claims because it is true that what Paine had said is not the same today and I also agree that Americans have erased equality between social classes.
I believe this is a very strong claim, because you use clearly understand the prompt, and you clearly voice your argument. You also use the same pharse Paine used, “opressed the poor.” you are directly replying to his statement.
I agree too. We’ve fell to corruption. Your subclaims hit the nail on the head.
I think your claim is one of the strongest becuase it is bold and your sub-claims do a good job of supporting it.
You clearly cover all three parts of Paine’s claim and strongly state your position. Your position is also highly arguable.
Claim: The America with the values,rights, and equality which Paine depicts is not the America we live in today because of Corruption.
Sub-claim: The mixing of different races and cultures in America is not as well tolerated as Paine says, for much of the country is still racist toward the minority groups.
Sub-claim: The Wealthy Americans are Highly privileged and are able to get the best possible treatments, while the poorer classes get nothing of the sort, which completely destroys the equality that all Americans are promised.
I agree with your claim and sub-claim because you’re reasons were very similar to mine, and I agree that wealthy Americans get better treatments then the commonwealth, and that the mix of different races is not tolerated as nicely as Paine says.
Hi Ryan! Keep in mind: we’re not agreeing or disagreeing with the claims; rather, we are identifying the strongest claims. As in, which bear the most weight, argument-wise?
I like this because it somewhat agrees with my claim, which is also what I believe in. And it is short and to the point, which is what a thesis or claim should be. I also think that your sub-claims are relevant to the article and true.
I think this is a strong, well written argument, because the claim is clear and understandable, and the sub-claims effectively relate back to the main claim. I also like how the sub-claims are well explained, and not just stated.
CLAIM: The America Paine describes was a vision and at the time was practical. However, over the years America has evolved into what it now is; a corporate conglomerate where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
SUB-CLAIM: Paine says “it would appear that the union of such a people was impracticable”. In some cases it is and in some it is not. Now and days race still plays a key role in how people are treated and regarded.
SUB-CLAIM: Even though people do believe our government is now “wretched” in some aspects, there will be no “riots and tumults”.
Your claim is short to the point and specific, although the last half I don’t agree with, as it seems more like a sub-claim.
I also agree with Kenny’s because It is specific and I also like how his claim is worded.
CLAIM: Paine portrays that America is in agreement with each other, which over the years has become impracticable.
SUB CLAIM: The rich Americans are getting more benefits than that of the poorer Americans. They are given more rights, more power than the poor.
SUB CLAIM: People from different nations and different governments are not used to our government are not going to understand and this will cause more chaos.
CLAIM: Paines’s characterization of America no longer holds true today due to the corruption within the government.
SUB-CLAIM: Although the people of America are united against a common cause, that cause is the government.
SUB-CLAIM: Although Paine said “there is nothing to render them wretched,” he may have been correct in the time that he wrote Rights of Man , but that is no longer true today.
-I like this because you are short and to the point.
-I also like this because I know right off what you are going to talk about and I have a clear understanding where you stand.
Nice explanation as to why this qualifies as a strong claim, Sarah. I agree with you about the main claim. However, Troy, I wonder if your second sub-claim is the larger umbrella under which your main claim really falls? Your second sub-claim is well stated!
I like your claim a lot Troy. I think it’s concise and accurate.
I like the claim because it does ring true. Its also short and concise. I also like how you quoted Paine in your sub claim
Quick and to the point (I believe someone has mentioned this). I can understand what you are arguing, and your position.
Major Claim: Paine describes America as a beautiful society in which all are equal and none are rejected, the sad reality of the matter being that this is dream land impossible.
Subclaim: There are numerous taxes that weren’t yet imposed at the time this passage was written.
Subclaim: Whether there is anything to “engender riots and tumults” or not, they frequently occur in modern America.
I agree with this claim also, because of the general topics of the claim and sub claim; they (The claim and Sub claims) can be argued on both sides.
I agree with Colleen’s Claim/Sub claims. Because I like how her claim doesn’t talk about how awful our society is but how beautiful it is not. I also like her sub claims they are specific reason’s on how Paine’s America is not possible.
I like yours, Colleen, because it seems one of the most true and informative that I’ve seen.
I like Colleen’s claim and sub-claims, because her claim directly addresses the prompt and even states Paine’s view of America before opposing it. Her sub-claims are also easy to argue and require evidence to back them up, making it easy to see them as sub-claims.
Elany, I like how you say, “Her sub-claims…require evidence to back them up…” Indeed–sub-claims need evidence to prove them true! Good eye!
Claim: Paines claim of America being a country of many rights, opportunities, and freedoms doesn’t hold true to this day because of economy and lack of rights among people.
Sub Claim- The people of United States are not united as Peain claims.
Sub Claim- Paine also claims that “The poor are not oppressed, and the rich are not privileged” which is not true to this day because people with less money do not get hte same oppertunities as the rich.
Your claim is very relevant and gives proof through the argument but is still debateable. I also appreciate the input of what america is made of it adds depth and character.
I agree. Your claim is very clear and to the point. You do have good proof and it is still arguable.
Claim:
Paine’s characterization of America is no longer entirely accurate.
Subclaim:
America is, yes, diverse in terms of race, language, beliefs and lifestyle choices.
Subclaim:
The poor are not properly cared for, the rich are indeed priviledged, and not every law is in the people’s best interest whole heartedly.
I believe this is one of the better claims because there is room to argue it. Not to mention it is very generalized and straight to the point. There’s no evidence within the sub claims, which is good, and there is no “because” in the claim, which allows it to be a true claim, not just another sub claim.
I agree with your claim and sub-claims because you clearly state what you are talking about which makes it easier to understand and your sub-claims give a wide variety of subjects like race, language, beliefs and lifestyle choices.
Yep, Chrisi and Audrey! What makes Erin’s claim work is that though she is brief, she includes evaluative words “no longer entirely” that pose her claim as arguable. Lots of room to take sides on this one. Take note how a claim can be succinct but still leave lots to say later on. Well done, Erin!
Claim: Thomas Paine’s claim is true back in 1791, the only problem is we live in 2011.
Subclaim: Even in the town of Sedro-Woolley you can see gaps in social classes.
Subclaim: The nations government is anything but just.
YOU HAVE MY AXE FOR YOUR CLAIM!
Actually you have my support after thursday.
Oh gosh, this made me laugh out loud.
I think that your claim makes a really great point its straight forward and leaves a lot of room for evidence to take charge and support the claim.
CLAIM: Paine’s characterization of America is false because the union formed to support America’s diversity is not flawless.
SUBCLAIM: The rich are definitely privileged. Money gives a strong advantage and many opportunities.
SUBCLAIM: America is not a peaceful country. Difficulties and disagreements are the cause of every positive improvement.
I really like Alysa’s because there is no wiggle room in what she says. There’s no “maybe,” it’s a definite “no.” She keeps the main point of her argument simple and realistic, which leaves her room to be so much more elaborate without losing her point. And I LOVE LOVE LOVE this idea: “America is not a peaceful country. Difficulties and disagreements are the cause of every positive improvement.” The statement is insanely true and a very analytic way to look at America. Not to mention the fact that she says “positive.” It’s like the huge idea that you cannot improve at all without conflict in the first place. It’s so mind-blowing.
I like this arguement because it is simple and definite. It gives room to use evidence from both modern society and from history. The claim is not concrete and the sub-claims are easy to prove with a little research or previous knowledge.
I Believe that Alysa’s argument is one of the strongest because it is simple and direct. It gives plenty of room for her to explain and give evidence from both Modern day America and its past.
I like your claim, Alysa, I think mostly because the phrase “diversity is not flawless” sounds like an amazing (and true) claim.
I beleive the 2nd subclaim is definitly a new thought which has not been stated before, it also brings up a very valid point. Strife has made this country successful. Overall these claims and subclaims seems to hit the nail on the head.
CL:Paine’s vision of United States government, in which all people are treated equally, is not reflected in American society today.
SC:The United States is divided along racial lines; torn by religious strife; and citizen’s personal freedom’s are left unprotected.
SC:Paine claims that, under his version of government “the poor are not oppressed, the rich are not privileged.” In current American society the gap between the rich and the poor widens everyday.
I find Julia’s a strong arguement because it’s too the point and short, but gets the entire idea out in a good fashion.
And she answers the prompt and has legitimate sub claims to back up what she is saying. I think it could be argued from either side.
Yep. The claim works. Notice the difference in syntax from most of the other claims. What makes this one sound different? Good work, Julia!
Claim: Thomas Paine’s vision of the ideal America is unobtainable with the societal issues and lack of unity we have today.
Sub-claim: The rich people get the privileges because makes the world go ’round.
Sub-claim: Governments are built from the principles of society and rights of man.
*because money makes*
CLAIM: Paine depicts a unity in America built upon diversity, yet this characterization of America falls flat in the eyes of present day and age.
SUB-CLAIM: The rich are much more privileged then the poor in America.
SUB-CLAIM: Religious tolerance is very limited to certain groups and practices.
I agree with your claims and sub-claims because they are general but to the point, and that your sub claims are very true and are similar to what I spoke of. The rich are certainly more privileged, and religious tolerance is extremely lacking.
Your claim is well stated and I completely agree with you. The “diversity” in America is no longer a source of “unity”. The phrase “falls flat in the eyes of the present day”, is very well written and sets you up to compare modern day America to Paine’s. Your sub-claims are direct, can be argued, and will need evidence to back them up. Your argument is presented strongly.
I agree. Your sub-claims do give good proof but are still general and accurate which makes it easier to argue. Your claim is well written like Kayla said and very powerful.
CLAIM: Although its people are diverse in many ways, America differs greatly from Paine’s idealistic ideas of equality and peace.
SC: Unemployment is still recovering from dropping to an all time low, and more people than ever are hungry and homeless.
SC: The United States’ government is a mess. Taxes are too high for the people paying them, and the country is buried in debt.
I like Katie’s claim because it addresses the diversity that is mentioned in the prompt and you know she disagrees with Paine. Her subclaims work with her claim because she uses phrases like “all time low” and “buried in debt.”
Claim: Paines’s depiction of America may have been considered correct at his time, but the difference in class surely has had an effect on how diverse people were regarded. His promise land that he speaks so highly of will not always be ” cordial unison,” because with such diverse people corruption is bound to follow. The passage that he wrote does not grasp the realism of freedom since the government was not created for the rights of all men.
Sub-Claim: Thomas Paine’s statement was partly false because people are always going to bicker, and complete bliss in intangible.
Sub-Claim: His statement is also not completely true because during his time his idea of equality was much different than the modern definition of our time.
CLAIM: Paine views America as a haven for all factions.
Subclaim: It seems that this unity would not work but by a strong, just government harmony is attainable.
Subclaim: People of all social, econmic, racial, and religous backgrounds thirve in America.
Subclaim: Gary
waz
here
Gary, make sure you are responding in your main claim to what was being asked: defend, challenge or qualify. You have simply stated Paine’s point of view. Take this one step further.
Main Claim: The characterization that Paine had on America was a goal that America had set out to fullfill, but is no longer true to this day.
Sub-Claim: The extremely high taxes show unjustice
Sub-Claim: The poverty over the years has grown tremendously as the government lacks to do its job.
Claim: Paine’s words of America’s greatness are anachronistic in this weak-moraled, corrupt world our country has morphed into.
Sub-claim: Paine says America is made up of people, “different in their modes of worship” and “speaking different languages”. These differences have been sources of hatred and fear instead of union.
Sub-claim: The statement that “the poor are not oppressed, the rich are not privileged” has changed into the opposite of this.
evidence for the last: taxes
Claim: Although establishing a government based on rules of society and individual rights was a noble idea, this form of government has not eliminated America’s problems nor has it brought the country into “cordial unison.”
Sub-claim: While numerous Americans are trapped in poverty, other affluent citizens receive monetary privileges.
Sub-claim: Rather than being in unison, Americans disagree with a myriad of social, economic, and political issues.
I like this arguement because the claim is effectively supported by the sub-claims. The claim is not a direct arguement with evidence in and of itself, and thus it works as the claim, but it leads into the second sub-claim extraordinarily well. The sub-claims are supported by lots of concrete evidence from an all too recent past.
Claim: Paine was correct at the specific time because his perception of equal was different than ours. But now, it is not correct because equality changed.
Sub-claim: Humans will always be corrupt and arrogant, and this prevents the possibility of a ‘Just Government.’
Sub-claim: Whenever or whenever you get two or more people of different races or ethnicity’s there will never be acceptance.
Claim: Today, Thomas Paine’s characterization of America as a place where difficulties have vanished because of the government’s promise to work for the rights of man is no longer true.
Sub-claim: The unity of the people in America is forever severed by race, religion, and political views because of the lack of government leadership.
Sub-claim: There is suffering all over the country that goes unnoticed by the eyes of government officials who have the power to help.
Claim: Paine had characterized America as a flawless country, but is no longer seen as this because the government has not tried to fix any of our problems.
Sub-claim: Many taxes have been imposed after the passage was written.
Sub-claim: Poverty has become a major problem, unlike how Paine stated “the poor are not oppressed”
CLAIM: Paine’s view about America no longer remains true; American is not equally divided, it is not practical, and it is not independent.
SUB-CLAIM: As time progresses, Americans are realizing that they scarcely produce their own products for consumers.
SUB-CLAIM: Although many other nations are living off of a naturally produced energy, wind or solar power for example, the U.S. does not convert to this way of thinking even though it is obviously beneficial.
Nice use of a semi-colon to set up your sign-posting, Kelsey!
CRAP. Change the “American” to “America.” 😦
Claim: Paine’s characterization of America may of been true at the time, but it is not correct for present America.
Sub-Claim: Taxes are far from few because the government is far from just.
Sub-Claim: The rich are much more privileged while the poor struggle.
Nick–What really works in your claim is your acknowledgment of the discrepancy of context between Paine’s time and now. Good observation.
Main Claim: Paine’s characterization of America works in 1791, but today our society is treated differently by the government.
Sub-Claim: The poor are oppressed and the rich are privileged.
Sub-Claim: The government is based on the principles of society.
I like this one because Paine uses “The poor are oppressed and the rich are privileged” in his statement.
I agree with Greg on this one. his claim is a a setup for his argument and not evidence in itself. His subclaims are definetly oppionated with out much fact, although they can be supported.
Main Claim: Paine’s idea, even characterization, of America may have been true when it was thought; but in today’s society, it rings untrue in so many fashions that it can be thought of as an “under par” and besmirched “today”.
Sub-Claim: The rich have more privledges than the poor.
Sub-Claim: The government doesn’t always do what’s best for /the people/.
(The forward slashes “/” around a word/fragment are meant to be emphasized.)
Claim: Paine’s description was maybe true back in 1791, but not so much today.It describes America only under the absolute best chances of circumstance.
Sub-Claim: The taxes are not few, the american people are continually being taxed more and more.
Sub-Claim: Not every “difficulty retires” There is still many problems within our country.
This last statement is an interesting idea, Melissa.
Claim: Everything Paine stated in the passage may have been true when written in 1791. Two-hundred years, however, have since passed, making his statements no longer fact, just more like a goal for America.
Sub-Claim: Paine’s statement, “…the poor are not oppressed…”, has become erroneous over time. Poor people are often mistreated and looked upon as just about scum..especially in bigger cities such as Los Angeles, Seattle, Las Vegas, and New York City, to name a few.
Sub-Claim: Paine’s statement, “…the rich are not privileged…”, is absolutely fictitious to today’s society. Main argument of that: TAXES! Those millionaires and billionaires don’t have to pay as much on taxes as, say, a school teacher. The rich have a ridiculous number of privileges.
Ok so I couldn’t post on any of the comments because I wasn’t able to log in. Sorry about that. But anyway I agree with Ryne and Erin. Ryne’s claim is short and easy to argue and Erin’s subclaim’s will be easy to support with evidence.
Nice work, Team! What a pleasure it is to read your thoughts made evident via blog! 🙂
More feedback on what you’ve written when Anna Karenina isn’t calling my name and I haven’t just finished grading your short answers!
Bring your SL books to class tomorrow if you get this–you may have a scoach of time to read.
I won’t see you till Wed. Adieu!